S9 E7: The Art of Sensing: How Communicators Can Read the Room and Act Before It’s Too Late with Erin Vogt of Peritus PR

Adrian McIntyre: 0:00:01

From the Public Relations Global Network, this is PRGN Presents. I'm Adrian McIntyre.

Abbie Fink: 0:00:07

And I'm Abbie Fink, president of HMA Public Relations in Phoenix, Arizona, and a founding member of PRGN. With public relations leaders embedded into the fabric of the communities we serve, clients hire our agencies for the local knowledge, expertise, and connections in markets spanning six continents across the world.

Adrian McIntyre: 0:00:28

Our guests on this bi-weekly podcast series are all members of the Public Relations Global Network. They will discuss such topics as workplace culture, creative compensation and succession planning, the importance of sustainability and environmental, social and governance programs, crisis communications, and outside of the box thinking for growing your business.

Abbie Fink: 0:00:48

For more information about PRGN and our members, please visit prgn.com. And now let's meet our guest for this episode.

Erin Vogt: 0:00:59

Hi, my name is Erin Vogt. I am a partner and COO at Peritus PR. We are based in Birmingham, Alabama, and I have spent my career pretty much as an agency girl. I started off in an agency in North Florida, found my way to Alabama, and have lots of experience in crisis management and corporate comms and executive positioning. I'm excited to talk to you all today.

Abbie Fink: 0:01:25

I love that. I guess I would define myself as an agency gal, too. I spent one and a half years-ish in-house, and then I think I'm better suited for this more frenetic lifestyle that the agencies provide us. You know, you and I were together earlier in the year in Nashville and you were talking about this concept of the art of sensing, and I just loved it so much and wanted to further the conversation, and so I'm so excited to be chatting a little bit about this. One of the things that my team and I talk about a lot in our prepping for new business presentations, or if we've got a big campaign that we want to roll out is, don't forget to read the room, right? There's so much about what we do that has little to do with necessarily what we're doing, but how it's being received. And so when you were having this conversation with us, it just really struck me that really having this sixth sense, if you will, to kind of take a look at what's going on around you. And how that can benefit you. But you've turned this into a real strategic advantage. And so just to kind of level-set and, you know, get the conversation started, share a little bit about what you mean by the art of sensing, but maybe more importantly, how it has become, you know, a tool that you and your teams are using. And then we can kind of go in from there about, you know, what fine tuning that sense might look like.

Erin Vogt: 0:03:06

You know, it definitely is an art. And as much as it's art, I think it's science, too. We as communicators, especially those of us that are in more senior leadership positions, we've been around the block for a while. We're able to read a room really, really quickly. We've done it throughout our careers for better, for worse. We've, you know, been taught through the school of hard knocks. So we're good at the intuition piece of it, which to me is really the art. And what we want to train our team on, too, is a little bit of the science behind it. And that's more of spotting the patterns. So less of the content and what our clients or, you know, sitting in a new business conversation, less of what they might be saying verbally and more of the nonverbal cues. What's their body language? How are they saying it? What's their tone? With clients spotting those patterns of, you know, over time, what small subtle shifts in their tone, their communication style? What's changing? And is there anything we should do or we can do about that?

Abbie Fink: 0:04:14

So that, I think, comes over time, right? If you're building the relationship with your clients, you've been with them, you know what is important to them, you know what their strategic goals are. So in theory, we would have a much better sense of, you know, where they're headed. How do you hone in on that, you know, from the very beginning? You know, when you're in a room for the first time, in particular, if we're looking at it from a new business perspective or if we are, you know, reaching out to a member of the media that we haven't had a conversation with, what do we do to sort of get that sense quickly enough to be able to use it to our advantage? I mean, you have to almost know what to look for to see if it's happening in such a way.

Erin Vogt: 0:05:04

Right and it's hard because people are all wired differently we're all different so engagement from person to person can vary if they're more introverted it could feel you know. Cold, even though they're still showing signs of engagement. So signs of engagement that I like to look for, you know, it's not necessarily how loud or how energetic someone might be. It's what is the level of curiosity they're bringing to the conversation. So if you are meeting a new business prospect for the first time or you're at a coffee meeting with someone, are they doing more listening and you're doing more talking or are they asking thoughtful, curious questions to genuinely want to learn more about you, learn more about your expertise, and dive deeper into the conversation.

Abbie Fink: 0:05:51

And what if they're not? What do we have to do as communicators then to recognize that? I guess it's really where I'm headed with that. I mean, okay, they're not engaged. They're not leaning in. They're not nodding their head. They're not would feel about it, that they've been told they have to take this meeting. They're not necessarily excited about it. What do we do to readjust and, you know, accommodate the listener's behavior, if it's not giving us the feedback that we really had hoped we were going to be getting?

Erin Vogt: 0:06:29

Right. It's kind of like that awkward first date where the conversation feels like it's, you know, the conversation is forced. You're getting nothing. You're getting yes and no answers from them and carrying the load. Sometimes that happens. And truthfully, we've been in conversations from a new business perspective where we really hit it off with the CEO and he brought us in to meet his executive team. And then the COO who's holding the purse strings is giving us nothing. And our team in those moments, sometimes we have a hard time picking up on was he engaged? Was he disengaged? Is he skeptical? You know, he said two words the whole meeting. He's looking at us through furrowed brows, what's going on. So sometimes it could just be he's listening to absorb. He's going to ask his questions to the CEO later. They're going to circle back with us, you know, for any more in-depth information. Sometimes it's just kind of the nature of the beast. But I think if it's an opportunity that is meaningful to your firm or to your client and you do feel like I am not getting anywhere with this person, they're not interested, they're not engaged. You know, that's where we shift to what smart questions can we ask to dig around and find something that's going to pique their interest or good connection point that we can relate to them on.

Abbie Fink: 0:07:47

So do you think this, the art of sensing, maybe more so than the science of it, is something that can be taught? Or do you feel like this is, again, more of an intuitive nature, you know, where we just have that sense that something isn't jiving correctly, that we're not making that connection? I you know I've certainly been on what I think is the receiving end of someone who isn't getting that I'm not interested and they're just plowing through because they've got their script and they have to get through to the end and they're not paying attention to me. But I suspect that over, you know, over the many years of doing this, I've done similar. But can you teach that perception or that sense that that it's not working and where to make those shifts to still obviously get to where your end game is, but maybe have to take a different track?

Erin Vogt: 0:08:46

You know, Abbie, I think it's it. Yes, I think it can be taught. It goes back to the 10,000 hour rule, right? I think any skill can be taught if you invest enough time and practice in it. I do think for some people, this comes very naturally. We have we are Enneagram nerds over here at Peritus, and we have an Enneagram 4 on our team. She can make a best friend out of anyone faster than I've ever seen. And I'm an Enneagram 9. That's just not a skill set that I have. But the more you practice, I think you can pick up just tools and tips and tricks and ways to kind of get in the friend zone and go deeper with people quickly. And I do think a lot of that is the art of just being curious and asking smart questions and listening and making those connection points with people so they see that you're listening and caring.

Abbie Fink: 0:09:42

You know, curiosity has been my buzzword recently. I've, you know, I've had, I always have conversations with young up and coming professionals or re-careerers and they always want to know, you know, what can they do to be better at this career and what's, what are some skills, et cetera. And I always say curiosity, you know, you have to, you have to be curious. You have to ask a lot of questions and they give me kind of a funny look because I know what they're expecting me to say. You know, you have to understand, you know, in our world, the AP style book or whatever it is. Well, yes, those are obvious things to me. But I think to be successful in the relationship building, and that's regardless of whether you're doing it from a public relations or communications perspective, if you're in sales, if you are in the medical professional, anywhere where you're interacting, you have to be curious. You have to ask the questions of whomever is in the room, of yourself, of your team, to really get to the heart of the matter or it's just rote behavior. How did you...

Erin Vogt: 0:10:46

Thankfully, a lot of people in this industry are naturally curious. I think you have to be because we're probably subject matter experts on so many random topics. We can go to a cocktail hour and talk about you know, the durable goods industry or, you know, food manufacturing or nonprofits, anything, because it's just the nature of the work that we do. So I think thankfully, most of the time we luck out and find those naturally curious people here. But let's say you get a new hire in who's great at RPI, but hasn't had a ton of experience actually in meetings reading the room, then that's an opportunity to teach that skill set of curiosity and how to be curious.

Abbie Fink: 0:11:30

So let's dig in a little bit on that. So this is obviously something that your agency has, you know, invested significant amount of time in evaluating its benefits and see it as an advantage. So what does it look like in practice? How do you, you know, begin that process with the team? What do you practice it before you use it? Share a little bit about what it looks like, that framework looks like in your particular office, but really as it applies to, you know, in real application.

Erin Vogt: 0:12:06

Yeah, well, not to oversimplify it, but it really... We have it broken down into kind of three easy to remember steps for our team. And it starts with listening, with truly listening to what people are saying, content, yes, but also paying attention to all of those nonverbal cues, like their tone, their energy. You know, I think it's easy to tell when a client is talking about something that's a true business priority for them that matters a lot to them. You can see where their passion lies or on the flip side to what's keeping them up at night, what they're concerned about, what they're stressed about. So really listening for both verbal and nonverbal cues. And then I think it comes in spotting patterns, too, comes into play. And again, with long term client relationships, you know, that's going to be built over time. But in the context of a shorter new business meeting, it may be a buzzword that the CEO is constantly repeating. Or if you can tell if they're eager to move on to the next, you know, topic or question or not, or if they want to spend more time talking about something. So paying attention to those patterns and then acting early.

Erin Vogt: 0:13:15

So with a client and you're starting to spot patterns of disengagement, you know, maybe you feel them pulling back, their tone has changed in meetings, they're being, you know, they're using more brevity with you, their email responses are shorter, maybe they're not responding to email as quickly. And once you start to accumulate those patterns over time, that's your clue that, OK, something's going on and that's your chance to act, take action on that. Is it something worth monitoring? Is it something worth digging into? And I think, too, we are really good at gaslighting ourselves into thinking that, you know, putting a positive spin on it and saying it's OK. Well they're just approving things quickly with no edits because they're really, really happy like we're being successful here that's great but sometimes that is a sign of lack of engagement too so once you're spotting those clues or those patterns how are you choosing to act for the better because it's always easier to act when the stakes are low and it's not renewal season and we have a chance to fix or improve upon something or bring more value to

Abbie Fink: 0:14:23

So obviously, then the team structure that you've created, so the client team has to have an understanding of this and, you know, be prepared to recognize the changes in the behavior of the conversations, bring that to the team. So it can be, you know, a discussion point, you know, is it just that they're having a bad day? Is it me? Because sometimes it could be the relationship itself, right? I might not be the right person in this particular instance. Maybe we need to make a client, you know, account team change. There's a lot of reasons that could lead to that. But recognizing it and acting on it, then what does it look like then, with the client if, in fact, you have recognized these patterns that it feels like it's heading in a direction we would rather it not go? You certainly don't want to be defensive. You certainly don't want to, you know, their subtlety in giving you these hints may be their way of telling you they don't want this to be the way that it is anymore. So that, you know, confronting them can sometimes be difficult. But what happens next once you've determined that there likely is something that needs to be addressed? What do you do with that information? What does the team do or what does, in this case, if it's leadership, you know, what happens next? And then what do you do, I guess, then to, once that's happened, potentially turn it back around into a more positive outcome.

Erin Vogt: 0:15:51

Yeah. And I think it's this question. There's kind of two responses. It's two pronged. There is what do we do with the client? But first, you have to be really intentional creating an environment internally with your account teams and your account leads to where they feel safe to bring up those, you know, yellow or red flags. I've been in agency environments throughout my career where I was nervous to do that because I didn't want it to look like I was failing at my job. So you have to make sure your team understands, you know, we're humans. Not everything is going to be perfect all the time. If you're spotting a flag, if you're spotting a pattern, bring that to our attention so we have the opportunity to fix it and them having the psychological safety to know they're not going to be punished if there is a problem with a client. You know, nobody needs to carry that load alone. That's why we're a team. So I think the first part of it is establishing that with your team to where they understand they're safe to do so and we want them to bring problems or patterns they're spotting to the forefront.

Erin Vogt: 0:16:50

And then once you do with the client, it's of course, it's going to be different every single time, just given that client, their personality, the relationship they have with the client lead. It may be something as simple as the client lead, you know, taking them to coffee and just kind of asking, "What's on your mind? What's keeping you up? How are things going? Is there anything we can do to help bring more value to the work that we're doing?" And this is where I like to pull in, pull on a little bit of my HR hat. It's more of the, we're going to, you know, spot the observations and kind of bring that factually to the client. "So I've noticed recently you haven't had many edits to our work. Do you feel like we're still bringing value?" And then that's where listening comes in. Listen to understand, not to defend. Make sure you're giving the client the space to share their transparent feedback with you as well. And then that's where we can come back, have a collaborative discussion with our team and address like, is there a way we can fix this? Is there anything we should or could be doing differently?

Abbie Fink: 0:18:03

Do you set that meeting up with that being the intention? Like, you know, Mr. Client, I'd like to get together with you for coffee. I've been sensing that things might be a little off. Can we get, you know, some private time to talk about it? Or, you know, how do you get there in the first place?

Erin Vogt: 0:18:23

And if taking your client to coffee is out of the norm for you, I would say, you know, stick to whatever's more of a normal way that your firm would service a client. If they're used to going out to lunch or coffee or happy hour, great, go for it. If not, maybe it is a phone call where you just call to check in, no agenda, say, "Hey, I've noticed X, Y, or Z. I've noticed, you know, we've been, the responsiveness has shifted or you haven't had much feedback to our work or maybe we haven't been getting pulled into strategic discussions like we had at the beginning of our partnership. I wanted to give you the opportunity to, you know, to let me know something on your mind or is there something we should be doing different?" So I think it's whatever is normal and natural for that client relationship, go that route. But again, pointing out we've observed this, you know, opening it up with a question for more dialogue.

Abbie Fink: 0:19:20

So we've talked a lot about, you know, how this applies in the agency client relationships, but truly it can exist in any relationship of any kind. So, you know, that's the obvious ones as agency to client, but it certainly can be applied within your organization. This doesn't have to be, you know, the business to business environment. It can certainly be supervisor to team, co-worker to co-worker. So how, you know, the application of this strategic listening and response really has more value in a business than just listening. Getting and maintaining business. It really can apply to a lot of different things.

Erin Vogt: 0:20:05

Yeah. Honestly, Abbie, it's the best life skill. This is where my psychology minor comes into play because I use this with parenting, with my spouse, you know, in my friendships, with my family. But and I'm our culture person here at Peritus, too. I care greatly for our team and I want to hire the best people and keep them here as long as I humanly can. So, yeah, internally, you can look for the same patterns too with your team. And if you really pay attention and you're honest with yourself, you can see when people quietly disengage. When you start looking back at that track record too, and that's a signal that, ooh, something might be going on. I need to have an offsite with them, take them to lunch, no agenda, and just see if something's going on that, you know, maybe we can fix, maybe we can't, you know, and their time at the agency is kind of wrapping up. But more often than not, you know, we as leaders, I think, are good at noticing when that happens. And usually it's, you know, there's something going on that is causing them to have that sort of reaction. And I feel like more often than not, too, it's something that we can help from a work perspective, even if it's something happening in their personal life, it's good for us to be aware of it so that we can help lighten the load here or help them feel more support on the work front.

Adrian McIntyre: 0:21:28

Thanks for listening to this episode of PRGN Presents, brought to you by the Public Relations Global Network.

Abbie Fink: 0:21:35

Episodes are also available on our website, along with more information about PRGN and our members, at prgn.com.